The ESPC Property Show: Everything you wanted to know about garden design

Paul
Hello, it's Paul and Megan. Today, our guest is Lisa Lempsink who's going to be talking about gardens.

Megan
Yes she talks all about garden design. She is a garden designer. And it was an enlightening chat, wasn't it?

Paul
It certainly was. Lisa covers a lot of things, as I say she talks about cost, but she talks, interestingly enough about allotments, and we find out what's trending in terms of gardens? Which we won't tell you, you'll have to watch the show to find out, if you want to be up to date with your own garden, what you need? And also what there was a boom in during the pandemic again, we won't tell you that right now.

Megan
Yes. So again, without further ado, we'll let you listen for yourself. Hi Lisa, thanks for so much for joining us. And so we thought just to start off, if you could tell us a little bit about yourself, what you do and how you got into your field of work.

Lisa
Okay. Well, thank you very much, first of all, for inviting me. Yes, well, of course, gardens are a great topic. I mean, I think since the pandemic, in particular, people have been talking about nothing but gardens, because a lot of people only discovered their gardens, then. It took me actually quite a long time to get into the garden design arena. I'm from Edinburgh, I was born and brought up here, I haven't always lived here. I went off to university and the first time around, did a Business Studies degree. So basically, after I left university, I went into the pharmaceutical industry for about 15 years. And for a long time, that was good. And then I think like many things that gets passed its sell by date. And I'd always been really interested in plants and gardens and, and all that kind of thing. And so when I got into my late 30s, I was starting to look around thinking I don't want to spend the rest of my life doing what I'm doing. And basically, I just spent a day on the internet looking at all the various courses and things to do with plants of any kind and thought, Hmm, wonder what I could do, or wonder what I'd be good enough at doing. And basically, I came across this garden design course that was only in its second year up at the Scottish Agricultural College at King's buildings. And I thought garden design. Okay, that sounds really interesting. Went to the open day and thought, yeah, I love this and got accepted for a place, handed in my notice at work. And that was really the that was the start of everything. So that was 2006. And I was there for two years full time. At that stage, they only offered an HNDs. I did that for two years full time. And then literally, when the financial crash happened in 2008, I set up my business. So it was really bad timing. But it was fantastic. I have to say, it was the best thing that I've ever done. And launched me on a great and interesting career path. I've met fantastic people since then. Most people who like gardening and are into gardens are lovely people. And I've made loads of friends and loads of contacts and had a very fulfilling life I think, even more fulfilling doing something I really enjoy since I changed my career path. So anyway, yes, it was the 2008 crash. Money was pretty tight. Even, you know, majority of people were holding on to their budgets. And I was just starting out. So I actually got some work in a plant nursery. Mac Plants out at Pencaitland, to improve my plant knowledge and started taking on small jobs. And then as the years go on, you get more confident you try doing all sorts of different garden designs. And basically, I've been going for 15 years now. And I really still enjoy it as much as I did probably more than I did in the beginning because I'm a lot more confident. I've got a lot more experience now. So that's really how I ended up where I am today in the business. Yeah.

Paul
And when you say more confidence. So you give advice to clients and if the client was going to disregard that advice? Would you would you push back these days?

Lisa
Do you know if I went to do a consultation, which I do as either initial consultation of someone who are interested in the design, or I can just do it as a one off if people want advice about their garden. If people want to then take my advice and disregard it. That's absolutely fine. They're charged for that consultation. It's entirely up to them what they do with that information and advice. I would say that fortunately 98% of people are grateful for your advice, think it helps. And they feel reassured it might be they just want to run some stuff by you. I mean I went out to see a lady a few quite a few years ago, now his mother had just died. And she had been her biggest kind of advisor and support with things to do with many things and the garden was one of them. And suddenly, without her mum there to run things past she felt totally lost. So I just went out and did an initial consultation with her. And that's all she needed. She just said, "I'm thinking about this, what do you think about that? Do you think this is a good idea or a really bad idea?" and really I was just a sounding board. So it can be that or it can be everything through from that consultation, to doing a design, a build, planting plants, supplying the plants, it can be as little or as much as anybody wants. And I think most of my colleagues in garden design are all the same, pretty much we offer the same range of services. But mine is a very kind of a la carte. So you can price things individually, like designs and planting plants are all fixed prices. So I think people can just take what they want, and some people just want a design and then they want to go off and build the garden themselves. And that's absolutely fine. There is a huge amount of interest in garden design and the huge amount of business out there. And there's lots of us out there now.

Paul
It's all those TV programmes now?

Lisa
Yes, I was gonna send the TV programs can sometimes mislead people in terms of the cost and the speed to get it done. Because sometimes, I mean, very rarely do things, you know, take a few months, often they take up to a year with the different stages. And sometimes it takes more than that, depending on a lot of things. And the pandemic was an exceptional time where, you know, people were all stuck at home. And they suddenly realized that their neighbours could see into their houses, something that when they were out to work every day, they had never noticed and the number one thing that people asked me to come and discuss with them was their privacy.

Paul

Really? So like big bamboo screens and all sorts?

Lisa

"What do you think would be really big and could go really fast?" I think Yeah. You know, it was it was great. I mean, it but I, you know, I realized I was having almost the same conversation just with different garden areas and types and aspects and things. So slightly different problems. But privacy was the big thing. Yeah, I mean, it still is, but that was a really big thing.

Paul
I'm actually gardens of today, if we go back to the client, you mentioned there. Maybe gardens 30/40/50 years ago, are very different, aren't they? I mean, is there such a thing as trends in gardens? I remember, my grandad used to love his roses, and he had lots of Rose beds and it was fantastic growing up with my granddad, you know, looking after an immaculate lawn? You don't see so much of that these days.

Lisa
You don't. I have to say the one thing - I think there are trends absolutely. I think the one thing about lawns, it's really interesting, you say that tends to still be the male Preserve. A lot of men are very proud of their lawns. And that's their thing. They don't really mind what their partner does with the rest of the garden, as long as their lawn is a decent size and is protected. Striped. Exactly. But yes, I would say certainly for the last few years, maybe, you know a bit further back sustainability is obviously their number one topic along with climate change. And these are actually quite quite big things that we're looking at and garden design, sustainability being number one, but also our climate is changing. We're all feeling it even here in Edinburgh. And so there's lots of weather related issues, we get much warmer, drier spells, we've had quite a lot of drought in Edinburgh. And then people, you know, there's all sorts of pests and diseases associated with that. And then you get periods where it's pouring with rain all the time. So the soils going from being very dry to being flooded. So you know that I would say climate change, sustainability, and in terms of style, a lot of people looking for relaxed gardens, but cottage style gardens. So the kind of traditional in Old English/Scottish garden is still very much favoured. But people want a low maintenance version of that. So low maintenance is the top of almost everybody's list.

Paul

That's interesting, isn't it? I mean, cottages - our most viewed property on the ESPC last month and the month before was a cottage, interesting. So it's the dream isn't it?

It is the dream. And the pandemic I think was another thing that made people look at moving out to the countryside. And, you know, even people in Edinburgh I think, and that's, I mean, I work anywhere anybody would want me to work but there's so much business in Edinburgh, so many gardens, and people are all looking to maximize. So previously, you know, when people's kids had grown up and left home, they would think right, well, should we downsize now? I'm not seeing that now. I'm seeing people wanting to retire and stay in the house, but have a garden that's more suited to their particular needs. So it's quite a lot of future proofing for quite a lot of people, even though they're perfectly able bodied now asking me to design the garden to make sure that wheelchairs can get around easily. And I went through a run of that for a last couple of years, people thinking, well, maybe me and my partner or somebody will end up in a wheelchair and we need wheelchair access. So that's interestingly been a kind of recurring theme. But people still want to just entertain, do a little bit of pottering in the garden, sit out and have their gin and tonics, you know, entertain their friends. And certainly people that come to me and I can't speak for my colleagues, but very much are looking for what I would describe as planty gardens. So lots of plants, enough hard landscaping, patios and things, obviously to make it accessible and usable and appropriate, but they love plants, flowers, all that kind of thing. And they want lots of them.

Megan
And so chatting about your clients there, do you have a kind of typical client? Is there, like an age range of client that normally comes to you? Or is there a lot of diversity there?

Lisa
Not really, I would say age wise over 50s. I have had a few clients in the last couple of years in their 40s. I've finished a family garden at Murrayfield recently, but the predominant age range is 50 plus and I would say 60 to 70. They usually tell you they're retiring. So I say 50+, but it very much is that age group. And again, they're not downsizing, they're staying. And they often apart from having good pensions are often inheriting money from parents who have passed away. And they just think, yeah, if we're going to spend the next 20 years here, let's make this really nice. Let's make this work for us. So I would say yes, and I think the younger age groups, when I first started out, I used to get people in new builds a lot, who were young, so they'd be in their 20s or early 30s. And to be honest, they couldn't really afford the garden to be designed and built in the way that they want to. And I'm afraid like everything, this all comes down to money. And if you think that now currently contractors - a three man team of contractors costs £4500 a week. And that's just for labour. If your garden build is three weeks, which is fairly standard, you're already looking at, you know, £13,000-£14,000 pounds, and that's just for labour. So you can see that if you add materials onto that, and then the design, the plants and everything, you know, your average garden is often £30,000-£40,000, which is not an inconsiderable amount of money. And I think these youngsters, they don't have it, you know, they're already paying big mortgages if they can get on the property ladder. And it's a shame because it would be lovely, especially if they're settling down having a family and they're wanting that. But I'm afraid that seems to be the preserve at the moment of the older generations being able to afford that.

Paul
And people who are, as you said, who are ultimately probably going to stay in the property for a long time to get a return on that. You know, you're sinking quite a bit of money in there. Or Investing I should say.

Lisa
Investing! Well you know, it's interesting, you should mention that, it was something I was going to bring up because often I say to people, especially if you get for example, a couple who she would really she loves a garden, she really wants it doing and the husband or partner is not quite so sure he wants to spend that amount of money. And it's horses for courses, but I say to people, you know, it's really a good investment. Because if you look at the size of your garden, then okay, let's say your garden is going to cost you £70,000-£80,000, if you have an extension put on your house, it's going to cost you more than that. And yet, it's strange the way different people value or don't value the garden space. Yet, if you have a nice well designed garden that's safe and you sell your property at any stage, whether it's now or 20 years time. If you look after you're gonna get a great return on your investment. You can sell your property really quickly. When I first started out, I designed a garden for a lovely couple in Pencaitland and they lived in a new build estate and she was a farmer's daughter and she didn't like living in a new build estate. They'd been there for 10 years, the back garden - there was nothing apart for a little bit of patchy grass. She said right, I'd really like you to design the garden. And I really hate it, everything I do with the garden goes wrong. So I did that amd the garden turned out very nicely. And then I think it probably be about six to 12 months later she got in touch, she said to me, you're gonna really hate me. But we've just sold our house, and we're moving. And I said, "No, no it's fine, it's up to you what you do!" And she said to me, the house went so quickly because the garden was what differentiated itself from everybody else's on that particular estate.

Megan
I've got a couple of friends who have purchased new build houses and quite often, especially the back garden. It comes, you know, yeah, absolutely empty. And it is completely up to you how much or how most people just throw some turf down, but have taken that time and, and really working hard on the garden, I think is is something that really makes you stand out, especially when you see more modern properties come on the market. And you know, all the houses on the street are the same, but the garden is what makes it stand out. I think that's really nice. Absolutely.

Paul
And even astroturf? How do you feel about that?

Lisa
No, I would say that, obviously, natural, fresh turf is better. But I think astroturf is really good. Yeah, I think there's a place for it. And I know that it's not sustainable. And there will be lots of people looking and listening and thinking, Oh, my goodness, I can't believe she's recommending it. But there are a few places where I think it's really useful. I think for perhaps ladies who live on their own, and don't want to lug a big lawnmower about for maybe a very small patch of grass, it's very useful, I had a very nice couple who weren't into their garden at all. But were going to have a family and they wanted some astroturf because they just want it to look nice all the time. If there's a lot of areas where it's very dry, or very damp all the time, your your turf is going to look terrible most of the time. And sometimes in these areas, it's good. Well, I wouldn't necessarily recommend it for your whole garden. But I think there's a place, it might be a small place, but I think there's a place for it. And you can get some really nice natural looking turf now it's incredible.

Paul
My mum and dad have it and I keep going out, I can't believe it's not real!

Lisa
It is unbelievable. In fact, I did a garden in Blackhall, probably about eight years ago now. And they had a big back garden, a big front garden, and they had artificial lawn put down in the front garden, and fresh turf put down in the back, because the gentleman worked away. And when he came back at the weekends, mowing the lawn in one garden was quite enough for him. And his wife said, interestingly, they have big hedges. And she said she was gardening underneath the hedge, so to speak, in the front garden where the artificial lawn was down. And she had two ladies passing by peering in and saying to each other, isn't that beautiful? Look at their lawn is absolutely immaculate. And she was laughing because she thought, well, they obviously thought it was real, and it wasn't. So you know, there are situations. And often if you say you were somebody who had a disability, and wanted something like that some nice fresh looking lawn, but couldn't get out to mow it or that kind of thing. Perfect for them. So there are there are situations where it's good.

Megan
So Lisa when you arrive at a client's home to look at their garden to start that kind of initial consultation and design of the garden, what is the first thing that you look for?

Lisa
They normally take you into the house. And that's very useful because you get an idea, a sense of their style, colors, all that kind of thing. And then you have a look at the garden space. And then basically I asked them to tell me what they're looking for. And I say to them, don't worry, you don't have to work out where everything goes or describe in detail. Just tell me how do you want to use the garden? And I think getting a really tight brief right at the start of what people want, and what people don't want. Because actually what you don't want is as important to me as what you do want. And I did have a couple and did a very nice front garden for them actually about four or five years ago. And the client said, she said to me do you know, I don't know what I want. I just hate the space. It's just this has nothing there. And I said to her well tell me, what don't you like, Oh, I hate the horrible way that the lawn goes into some sort of strange peak at the top. So the first thing I did actually was create a perfect circle. And then the driveway was rebuilt around that. And then I kind of started from there. But actually if people don't have much of a brief it's actually can be quite tricky actually. Because you've got to then try and read their minds to think well how do you live your life? What would you what would be good for you? And yes, I do that. Budget is important. I do usually say to people, you know, do you have a budget in mind, they usually say, I've never done this before, we don't really know, you know how much is this is going to cost. And so I do tell them about the labour costs. And I try to, to say to them that, you know, when I started out, you could get, you could get a small but nice garden for £5000, and then it was 10. And then it was 20. And now it's 30+, and if you don't have good access to your garden, so the new builds are perfect, because you can easily take off the gates and they can get mini diggers and all this kind of stuff in but terraced houses and Edinburgh, Victorian terraced houses are a nightmare from that point of view, because everything has to come. Generally everything has to come through the house. And it puts the price up hugely, because the guys usually have to hand dig everything, and you really don't want. So, you know, what would normally be a £30,000 garden suddenly becomes a £50,000 garden? And so yes, it's all these kinds of things that you know, you see, and you learn about so there's no point if you go to see someone they say or look at their garden, they say, "Well, I've got a budget about £3500, do you think they'll do it?" And I say to them, Well, do you know, it's not that £3500 is nothing, it's just in this particular world we're living in at the moment, everything is expensive. These are the labor costs, that's before you've even got materials, then you've got my design fees. So in that kind of case, I would give them a name of a good contractor, and say to them, get in touch with them, they'll do a nice little change your patio, slabs, or whatever it is and tart things up a bit. But it can cost a lot of money to clear all the stuff initially from the garden and have it disposed of. So the guys, the contractors who are doing that, they have to pay for that. So it gets loaded on. So there's nothing cheap about having your garden done.

Paul
But what you're talking there about there is a wholesale change, maybe raising or reducing the ground at the ground levelling and a big piece of work.

Lisa
Absolutely it is a big piece of work. I mean, I think that's exactly it.

Paul
I mean, there are a lot of smaller gardens in and around Edinburgh. And what what's your advice with? How do you make the most of the space there?

Lisa
I think the way to do it, I think there's a couple of things I would say about this, I think if you've got some ideas yourself, that's great. You have to really look at the aspect, how dark or light the area is. You don't want to overcrowd a small area and clutter it up. So I think it's being realistic about what you can really get into that space. Instead of packing everything in. Also, I would say if people are doing it themselves, I would get a table and chairs and literally put them in that garden space and see how much space they take up. Because it's things, for example, I'm working on a lovely garden in Duddingston at the moment, and the couple already have, it's a beautiful new build. But they already have a two meter deep if you like, patio area, but they want a table and chairs for six people. Now it isn't deep enough for that you need three meters, because if you think it's about 900 millimeters for a table. So that's the width of a table, then you really need a meter at each side for people who want to be able to sit and then to be able to push their chair back and get out. And then if you don't even have space, they're going to fall off the back of the patio. So do you know it's these kind of things, that practical things. But I would honestly say there's a lot of designers about, I think if you've got some ideas and you want to sketch them out, just pay for a consultation, you don't even have to pay for anything more, and get some good advice. And I would also recommend that you ask them who they would recommend as contractors, because there's lots of fly by nights and people who make a real mess of your garden and take all the money. I've seen that, I've been to see patch up jobs. That's not something people want to touch. And it's sad to think people have spent a considerable amount of money and been ripped off. So I always say to people, if you don't know who to go to get in touch with me, doesn't matter if you don't use my services. I'm more than happy to give you the names of reliable and trustworthy contractors, electrical engineers, all that kind of thing. So I think it's quite tricky, but I think once people have had that initial discussion, they're often a lot more confident by going off and kind of designing it themselves.

Paul
So Lisa, one of the things, we've just done a chat beforehand, I'm going to reel some things off. And you can give us your thoughts on it: flat roof gardens, which I think is quite a novel idea. You know, as you say we talk about small spaces, but living walls, which you only see in posh bars and restaurants. But is it a thing? Could we have one? And allotments, we'll come to our allotments last! So what's your thoughts on flat roofs and living walls?

Lisa
They are really popular now, you often see them not necessarily on people's houses, certainly not in the cities very much. And you tend to see them on architects often have lovely buildings, and they've put a lovely living roof on top of there, on top of their building, they are very popular, I mean, you can have it on your roof. If you have the right sort of house, you can also have it on top of I mean, this is quite a novel and neat idea for anybody, on top of if you want your wheelie bins, which are plentiful and rather unattractive looking, put into a really nice kind of storage unit, you can actually have like a sedum flat roof on top of that. So it completely hides this functional, essential thing we need. But also, you can tidy it away and it cover over and make it look beautiful and natural and part of the garden. And when people you know don't often don't have very big gardens. Personally, I think you know, having an average sized garden is great, I don't think you want one that's really, really big. Because most people don't have the time or energy to do it. You often have to have things like bins quite close to seating areas, if there's not a lot of room and just depends on the way things work. So that's what I would recommend, you know, using that kind of thing - sheds, most people have a shed in their garden, you can have it put on that. And then when you come to living walls, I've just actually come back from Germany, I went to with some garden design pals to see BUGA, which is the federal garden shows. So every two years in Germany, they have a beautiful really full on Garden Show. And they illustrate every type of planting. They actually took over an old disused American army base. It's Mannheim this year. And in fact, they created living walls and examples of all the things we were talking about there. Basically trying to say to the public, listen, you know, there's things you can do. Even if you just have a flat and apartment, with a small balcony, you can easily rig up these kinds of things. So you just need to kind of Google that on the internet. And it doesn't matter how small your space is, you can have something living. And I thought I thought it was very interesting what we saw there in terms of promoting that. Not really Chelsea Flower Show, like more anonymous it wasn't saying this designer's done this bed, the planting was absolutely stunning. And then they leave, leave all this for the public in that town and they move on a couple of years later to somewhere else.

Paul
Yeah, again it's this community based thing, isn't it? And again, we were talking earlier about the prevalence you see at roundabouts and just bits at lay bys and stuff where there's been wild flowers just sewn or seeds or maybe blown. I don't know.

Lisa
But I think a combination, and it's great. I'm sure the council are always very relieved that somebody else not asking them for any budget, but goes ahead and does it themselves, which I think probably brings you on to the allotment topic that we were we were chatting about earlier. And I think you know when you see people doing exactly what we've discussed, taking a little bit of space or a little bit of land, disused somewhere near them that's ugly, and then they can just sow some seeds really cheaply. And they get a lovely result they think doesn't have to be perfect. It's just improved things and I think it's a frustration of a lot of people who often don't have gardens live in flats. They don't have that outdoor space and their ability to be creative like that. And I think that's where allotments now where people are sowing often lots of flowers as well as veg, traditional vegetables. Where I think there's a need to perhaps revisit the system by which people are allotted allotments, because a lot of allotments not all but a lot are very big. The people that are given the allotment don't have the time or the wherewithal to manage them. And these things would be better divided up instead of having long waiting lists for people waiting 10-15 years for a space. They should be divided into smaller, more manageable units, and given to people who live in flats as a priority, who don't have a garden rather than people who currently have a front and back garden, plus they have an allotment. So there seems to be an awful lot of that and not enough to encourage people in apartments and flats, to garden and to have that freedom and fresh air.